Conversation with Dr. Rao
Fair Lawn, New Jersey, 6/11/2005
Dr. Rao: Where is the supernatural element coming from, right?
SDA: The original supernatural power is coming from Itself. There are two things that exist within a totality:one is the energy and the other is the source of the energy. There are two things, the Ďenergeticí which is the generator of all the energy and there is the Ďenergyí. Thatís all there is. Itís just the energetic and thereís the energy.
The energy is nothing but a transformation of the energetic. But the energetic is that source of everything.
Dr. Rao: Right.
SDA: The energetic- the cosmic power house thatís generating all the energy.
Dr. Rao: Right. So in following up, his line of thinking- God is not an entity that is living out of this world, in some other spatial temporality.
SDA: Why do you say that?
Dr. Rao: No, I am asking this question. What would be your answer, so there is no such thing as super natural world?
SDA: We only say supernatural if we are not aware of it. Thatís all. Actually, there is no such thing as Ďsupernaturalí in that sense.
Dr. Rao: Thatís the answer.
SDA: Everything is natural.
Dr. Rao: Everything is natural.
SDA: We call supernatural that which is beyond our perception. Thatís all.
SDA: But when you come to higher level of understanding then you see everything is natural. Thereís no such thing as supernatural. Supernatural is the term used by people who donít know everything. Thatís all. But actually everything is natural. Absolutely everything is going on naturally. Everything is happening naturally.
Dr. Rao: Thatís the Vedic view.
SDA: Supernatural is the term we use because we are in ignorance. Thatís all. But one who is enlightened, he sees everything is going on naturally, thereís nothing Ďsupernaturalí. Everything is natural.
Dr. Rao: So forms and names, this separateness is already in the consciousness itself.
SDA: Since persons are coming out of that energetic source that energetic source must possess personality otherwise how It can generate personality? If a source does not have form, does not have personality, itís not capable of generating form and personality.
Form and personality must exist. The spring must have water within it, in order for water to come out of it. So, the original source must possess form and personality, in order to be able to manifest form and personality.
Dr. Rao: Yeah, but not only in terms of human beings, but also everything that exists in the universe. Everything!
SDA: Everything comes out of original source.
SDA: The planets, the grass-hoppers, the rocks, the stars, the clouds. Everything!
Dr. Rao: Also, the entire spectrum of emotions.
SDA: Yes! Thatís on the subtle plane.
SDA: The subtle plane- the plane of mind, intelligence and false ego. That is also coming out of the original source. Everything!
Dr. Rao: Right. That means- now coming back to practical terms- even Bin Laden phenomenon is also has its source.
SDA: Yes! Bin Laden is also an emanation from Krishna.
Dr. Rao: Right.
SDA: Thatís right. Osama Bin Laden, Al-Qaida, itís also an emanation from Krishna.
Dr. Rao: Right.
SDA: Everything is coming from Krishna. Krishna confirms in the Bhagavad-gita Chapter 10, Verse 8.
mattah sarvam pravartate
mattah sarvam pravartate
He says: ďI am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me.Ē
He confirms it, everything is emanating from Him.
Guest (1): So why create this chaos?
SDA: Yes, I can answer that. Krishna has not created chaos. You have created it. Or we have created it.
This is very, very common question; I have been asked this hundreds of times.
It all boils down to Ďloveí. Just like you are raising your boys, you want them to love you, obviously. So how do you induce them to love you? Do you put a gun at their head and say: ďMy dear son, you better love me or I am going to shoot.Ē Of course not! He would hate you, if you did that. So what you do is give your love to your sons. You give them all your loving affections of father. And you just hope that theyíll learn; and they do learn. How to reciprocate love that you are giving them? They do learn. That is natural. So God is giving us His love with the hope that we will return and in most cases everyone does return.
This material world is a place for those people who did not really come to the point of reciprocating that love with God who wanted to rebel against Him.
The chaos in this material world is ultimately part of the order. It may appear chaotic but actually itís also order. Just like a prison its part of the order of the state government- to help to rectify those citizens who didnít voluntarily comply with the laws to understand that it is better for them to voluntarily comply with the laws. Actually, there is no such thing as Ďchaosí. It appears to be chaos as we are in this ignorant state.
When we can actually see the overall plan of the Lord to rectify those independent living entities, who didnít want to be subservient to Him then we see actually there is an order behind the apparent chaos. There is no actual chaos, just appears to be for those who are in ignorance.
Chaos doesnít really exist. There is no such thing. The only chaos is what appears to be chaos. The only chaos is our lack of Krishna consciousness- God consciousness. That is the chaos. That is because we are misusing our free will the Lord has given us- to love Him or to leave Him.
We chose to leave Him. Weíve put ourselves into a chaotic condition. But all we have to do to get rid of the chaos immediately and say: ďOkay! I've had enough of trying to be independent from the Lord. Let me now surrender to Him and be His humble servant once again.Ē Then for you chaos would be completely, absolutely, totally non-existent. You will have no more chaos in all your life.
Thatís why we have come here to ask you: Surrender to the Lord, surrender to Allah, surrender to Christ, surrender to Krishna. We are asking you to surrender to the Lord because this will bring you out of all chaos.
What appears to be chaos is simply your own lack of God consciousness. Thatís all it is. Chaos is manifested from one human being onto another; those are the people who are obviously not purely God conscious. They may be God conscious, but not purely God conscious. They are approaching God to fulfill their own material desires. Thatís not pure God consciousness. Pure God consciousness is completely surrendering to the will of the Lord. Such a person is a saintly person.
Guest (1): Forgive my ignorance. Truly, forgive my ignorance. As you said my perception of the chaos lies in my ignorance.
Inquiring is intelligence .
Guest (1): In the Vedic basis of levels as a human being I cannot see destruction.
SDA: Donít see what?
VPM: [Repeats] cannot see destruction.
Guest (1): I cannot see destruction. I cannot see killing of mankind.
Dr.Rao: Yeah, he cannot tolerate it.
I cannot tolerate it at any level. At any level .
SDA: But why you can tolerate killing of animals?
Guest (1): Actually, I cannot.
SDA: Alright! Then you must become vegetarian now.
Guest (1): I should. I should.
SDA: Your wife will be very happy, because I have told her: You make this a vegetarian house and I will come and she can feed me up to the neck next time, next year.
Guest (1): I should. I feel it every day. Itís just that I grew up that way.
SDA: I know. I can sympathize. I also grew up the same way. In a meat-eating house I grew up and itís just this is the way it is. And you know when I was a boy; I went hunting with my dad. And I still just cry when I think of it. Iíll just tell you my own realizations. Even before I knew about Krishna consciousness, I went goose hunting with my dad. I had a shot-gun and I aimed up at a herd of geese and one poor bird was killed by my shot. Then he came crashing down to the ground and I was so excited that I had gotten one. Oh! Itís a horrible thing when I think about it. Then I took him home and I cleaned him out, and we had him for dinner. But I couldnít eat it, I felt so bad when I came back to actually eat that poor animal, because I had seen it alive and he was dying as he hit the ground. And every time I see a goose flying in the sky now, I just cry: What a horrible thing I did, killed a poor wild geese, beautiful, beautiful animals.
There was absolutely no reason. We can live so nicely on fruits, vegetables, dairy products and grains. Why we should cause suffering to a poor creature? I always just got from the store, but now here is the one I personally killed. I actually saw the poor animal dying in front of me, crashing down from the sky to the ground. Itís a horrible thing. Itís a horrible sin I committed and I realized it, even though my parents were saying: ďOh! This is wonderful. You are great!Ē
SDA: ďNow you are a man. [clapping hands] You are great!Ē I couldnít even eat. I worked so hard. But in my heart I said this is horrible! I canít eat this. I felt so bad. I didnít know why, no one was telling me that. It was just my own intuition.
Even though I was raised to be a meat-eater and I was thinking this is a great thing, I am a great hero in the family. I got a goose! But no, I felt so bad. I felt so bad. That poor bird! And I still pray to Krishna to forgive me for that poor animal that was unnecessarily killed by my foolishness. So we are doing that every time when we go to the store and we buy a hamburger, buy a chicken or fish, anything- this poor living creature has been unnecessarily killed. We donít even need it. It is actually bad for our health. Itís much healthier to eat fruits, vegetables, dairy products and grains. The human body is by natureís arrangement meant to be a vegetarian body.
If you analyze the herbivorous animal, a carnivorous animal, look at the intestinal tract; look at the digestive juices; look at the shape of the teeth; you will see that your body is actually meant for vegetarian diet. You scientifically study nature- your body is meant to be vegetarian. Thatís why we have so much colon cancer, heart disease- meat eating
SDA: This is unhealthy unnatural diet, the training we got from a culture that was based out of the lust of the tongue.
VPM: That is another cause of all this violence which you cannot see.
SDA: Thatís right. If we commit violence on the poor animals, then it comes out. A little boy who goes to school, because he has been eating meat his whole life, he has all that violence. He is eating the result of the poor animals that are being cruelly slaughtered. That karma is sitting in his heart and comes outside. Children are taking guns to school. They show in the news that there is a child who has taken gun to the school and shot his teacher. He shoots his school mates and he shoots himself.
This violence is actually coming because we are in a culture where killing is actually okay! We live in a culture where it is okay to kill. A kid can take a bottle and go "Ha!Ha!Ha!" [Imitates a laugh] and smash a bug. Itís a living being. Because we donít have respect for life in this Western culture and then it carries all the way to killing our own human beings. We donít have respect for life on any level. We have to learn to respect life on every single level, then all this violence will stop. Thatís a fact.
VPM: The nature of mercy is lost by doing that violence.
SDA: Right. The quality of mercy is gone in this age.
SDA: We have no mercy.
Dr. Rao: My puzzle is, even those tendencies are present already in Krishna consciousness.
SDA: No! No! Krishna consciousness thereís no such tendencies to exploit and harm others, not in Krishna consciousness
Dr. Rao: How can you say that? How can you differentiate?
SDA: That is the covering.
Dr. Rao: All the forms and all the attitudes and all the emotions, they are already there.
SDA: The natural, original energy of the living being is in pure loving relationship with God and all living beings. But when one comes in contact with this material nature, that love is transformed into lust. Itís the same energy, but in contact with the material nature it transforms into lust. Just like the water in the sky, in the cloud, is pure distilled water, when it hits the earth it becomes muddy. So when that pure tendency of loving God and all living beings comes in contact with the material nature is transformed into lust.
Just like you can take water that is muddied by the earthís atmosphere and you can put it through a purification process to bring it back to its original pure state, you can through the process of purification of consciousness, which in this age is the chanting of the holy names of the God-Hare Krishna or any name:
Hare Krishna Hare
Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare
Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare
Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
You will cleanse out the lust, the anger, the greed which is polluting the original pure consciousness. The water is already pure itís just the impurity sitting in it right now.
Dr. Rao: Yeah, but then you are bringing in duality already to begin with.
SDA: Duality must be there.
Dr. Rao: Now we are coming to the point!
SDA: Duality must be there. There is pure duality and impure duality. There are two types of duality. Krishna confirms duality in the Bhagavad-gita. You have not read chapter 2?
na tv evaham jatu
na tvam neme
na tvam neme
He says: ďNever was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.Ē
Just like love is very nice thing. Isnít it?
Dr. Rao: Right.
SDA: So for love there has to be two. there is Krishna and you.
Dr. Rao: In all love also.
SDA: For love to exist there has to be duality. Love means reciprocation between two people.
SDA: So love cannot exist unless there is duality.
SDA: Because as long as you have twoness then that second person can either agree or disagree. Mostly they will agree, but sometimes they disagree and thatís why the material world is here for people who disagree with the God. But the material world is created in such a way that you come to your senses and you realize: ďWait a minute, why am I disagreeing with God. I suffer so much when I do that. Let me voluntarily come back to agreeing with the Lord.Ē Duality must be there, otherwise love cannot exist. There must be twoness. Within that oneness, there is twoness also.
Dr. Rao: Yeah! But then if you go little further then it is not only duality but infinite multiplicity.
SDA: Yes, thatís alright. So there is God and there are Godís creatures.
Dr. Rao: Yeah.
SDA: So those are two categories. Thatís called Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The God category is called Vishnu-tattva. The living beings category is called jiva-tattva. There are two categories. Yes, there is unlimited number of expansions of God.
Dr. Rao: Yeah.
SDA: There are unlimited number of jivas. Thatís alright. But there are two categories. Thereís God, one category, and servant of the God is another category. So you and I, we are servants of God. And if we try to be God artificially, we cannot do. We are in the servant of God category, thatís called jiva-tattva. Our category is servant of God. God cannot fall into illusion, only jiva can fall into illusion. So we are jiva. We fall into the tendency to remain with the God or leave Him. We can be in the enlightened or the illusionned state. So duality must be there, because now we are in the illusionned state. Thereís also the enlightened state. So that is duality also, illusion and enlightenment.
Krishna says we have to tolerate the dualities of this material world and engage ourselves in His service then we come back to the natural, original energy of the living being which is enlightened consciousness in pure love of God. We come back to that state of consciousness. So we are inviting you. You come. You come to this enlightened state. You are a great scientist.
Dr. Rao: No.
SDA: Now you become a scientist of the soul also.
Dr. Rao: Because this is an eternal question and we invite you. Now there is advaita and dvaita.
SDA: Yes. Yes. So the answer is- both are true.
Both philosophies are true. Dvaita is true and advaita, they are both true. This is expounded by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Ė acintya-bhedābheda-tattvaĖwhich means the absolute truth is simultaneously, inconceivably one and different. We accept dvaita-vada, we also accept advaita-vada. Both are true, simultaneously. The dvaita-advaita people are arguing for centuries. Isnít it?
Dr. Rao: Right.
SDA: But they are both wrong and they are both right.
SDA: They are both wrong and they are both right. Actually, both philosophies exist simultaneously; you have to come to a higher level. In philosophy, thereís what is known as thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis.
SDA: You have thesis and anti-thesis; and you have dvaita and advaita. But then you have synthesis that is: acintya-bhedabheda-tattva. The absolute truth is simultaneously, inconceivably, one and different. That is Krishna consciousness. We are not the dvaita or advaita, we are neither of those and we are both of them at the same time. This is the synthesis of the dvaita and advaita.
We can give practical example just like the Atlantic Ocean. You are near the Atlantic Ocean here. Not so far. So if I bring you one drop and I say: "My dear Dr. Rao, you are a scientist and I brought to you the Atlantic Ocean." You would say: ďOh! Yes, this is the Atlantic ocean.Ē Itís a specimen. But if I say: This is ĎTheí Atlantic ocean indicating the entirety of ocean. In English we say- ĎThe Atlantic Oceaní. It means the whole ocean.
Dr. Rao: Yeah!
SDA: Then you can say: ďOh! But my dear Gurudeva, that is not the Atlantic Ocean.Ē It is Atlantic Ocean but it is not ĎTheí Atlantic Ocean. Thereís a difference.
Dr. Rao: Um.
SDA: So itís simultaneously the Atlantic Ocean and not the Atlantic Ocean at the same time. It is specimen of the Atlantic Ocean, but it is not the entire Atlantic Ocean.
You are God in the sense that you are part of God like the drop of the Ocean. But you are not God- the complete whole. The part is one with the complete whole but at the same time it is different. In quality it is one and in quantity it is different.
You are qualitatively one with God. That is advaita. But quantitatively you are different. That is dvaita. Both are true. You are qualitatively one and quantitatively different from God. So there is our philosophy: acintya-bhedabheda-tattva - simulataneoulsy dvaita and advaita, qualitatively one, quantitatively different.
Dr. Rao: Why do you say that? Why even qualitatively we can be different?
SDA: No, but you are qualitatively one with God. Brahmaji describes Krishna in Brahma-samhita. He says:
isvarah paramah krsnah
That is the nature of the God. He is eternal-sat, cit- He is full of knowledge and ananda- ≠He is full of bliss.
So, you being qualitatively one with God, Dr. Rao, you are also eternal, you are also full of knowledge and you are also full of bliss in your liberated state. You are qualitatively one with God. He is sat-cit-ananda, you are also sac-cit-ananda.
SDA: But He is the big sat-cit-ananda and you are the little sat-cit-ananda. Thatís all.
VPM: Thatís right.
SDA: So in that sense you are different.
Dr. Rao: Yeah, I am trying to grasp all this.
SDA: Thatís very good, you are intelligent man. If you carefully read our books also, you have Bhagavad-gita, carefully study, your daughter-in-law will sign you up for the e-course.
VPM: Ask as many questions as you can.
SDA: You can ask questions by email also. We can have on going scientific dialogue, you and me, back and forth by email. All your questions we will answer them in full detail. I can see you are very learned and pious man, so I appreciate you very much.
Dr. Rao: I think about these things a lot. I am not a learned man by any means. But I think about them and then I wonder why I am thinking.
SDA: Why I have?
VPM: [Repeats] Why I am thinking?
SDA: Because you are a human being, thatís why.
[Dr. Rao laughs in the background]
SDA: Human life is meant for asking these questions. athato brahma- jijnasa Ė Now you have a human body, you are meant to ask these questions. Most people donít do it because they are just on animal platform.
Dr. Rao: Now letís go to the animal platform.
VPM: Let him finish.
Dr. Rao: Oh! Sorry.
SDA: Thatís alright. Animal platform?
Dr.Rao: Yeah, animal platform. Where does this demarcation take place?
SDA: Yes. Yes. They say that man is a Ďrationalí animal. So that is the difference. The rationality to inquire, "Who am I? What is my purpose? Where do I come from?" The animals donít ask. They just want to know, "Where is the next meal?" The dog just wants to know, "Where is the bone? And where is the she-dog?" Thatís all he cares about. "Where is the bone? And where is the she-dog?" That is animal life. But in human life you want to know, "Who am I? Where do I come from? Where is my origin? Where is my destination?" That is human life. That is the difference.
SDA: The dog will not come and hear this discourse on Bhagavad-gita.
Dr.Rao: Wait. But that we are judging only from our perspective.
SDA: No, even the dog, he will not.
Dr. Rao: But one thing we do know that the animals, their social behaviours are not totally different from humanís social behaviours.
SDA: Thatís alright. Because the human beings are acting like animals, nowadays therefore there is no difference between man and animals. Thatís a fact. But we have never seen one animal who is interested to know, "What is the meaning of my existence?"
Dr.Rao: Yeah, but that becomes a question again. Even among humans if you takeÖ
SDA: No. Human beings are all on the animal platform now.
Dr.Rao: Yeah. Among human beings, how many people will ask?
SDA: 0.000000001 per cent. Itís very small. Itís very rare. Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita:
kascin mam vetti
kascin mam vetti
Dr. Rao: Yeah!
So it is extremely rare! 99.999999999999 per cent of the human
population is simply animals. In the
Vedas it is called dvi-pada-pashu-
two legged animals. And when they get old,
tri-pada-pashu when they get
a cane .
Dr. Rao: Yeah. So that means now we have come back to the question of rebirth and reincarnation, evolution and all that stuff.
SDA: If you live like an animal, you come back as an animal in your next lifetime.
Dr.Rao: Yeah, but now we have to talk about what is meant by that Ďyouí that comes back.
SDA: That is called atma.
Dr.Rao: Yeah, we can give it a name but it doesnít mean anything.
SDA: That is you. Who is sitting on that couch right now? Thatís the atma. You are the driver and the car is the vehicle. Thatís all. The body that you have is the car and you are the driver sitting in the car.
That is the observer. Who is hearing me speak right now? Is it just neurons? No, because the neurons and all the cells in the body are constantly changing.
Dr.Rao: Öare changing. Yeah.
SDA: The driver of the body and the observer who observes through that body, thatís the atma. Your eyes are seeing or are you seeing through your eyes? Are your ears hearing or are you hearing through your ears? Is your body feeling that couch or you feeling that couch through your body?
Dr.Rao: Yeah, but you can say the same thing for an animal.
SDA: Thatís right. Thatís absolutely correct.
SDA: The animal is also an atma; just like you are an atma. The only difference is that he is more covered than you are. Thatís the only difference. Even a plant is also an atma.
Dr.Rao: Right. Okay. One step further... if that is the case, when does the separation between the atma and the body in which it lives occur?
SDA: At death.
Dr.Rao: Well, there is no such thing as an absolute, instantaneous death.
SDA: Death is not absolute. Death is relative. You are dead in relation to that particular body. Just like now you are wearing this very nice shirt, but you have not always worn that shirt. There was a time when you did not wear this shirt and there will be a time in the future, may be in a couple of hours, you will not be wearing this shirt.
SDA: So you are the wearer of the shirt and the shirt is being worn by you. So this body is being worn by you this time. But in some very near or distant future, you no longer will be wearing this particular shirt.
Dr. Rao: Yeah.
SDA: But you will still exist. That is the atma.
Dr.Rao: Let me phrase my question a little differently, and that is, see I have no quarrel in thinking that atma is the driving force or an entity outside the body.
SDA: Do you think there is one grand atma, the ultimate Atma of everything? But there are individual atmas also.
Dr.Rao: Now, that is dvaita now.
SDA: Yes. Thatís right. There is that duality. There are individual atmas. You know why they are individual atmas? Because that Supreme Paramatma, He could be all alone if He wanted to be.
SDA: That one original atma from which everything is coming, if He wanted to be alone, He can easily do, because He is all powerful. So, if that original atma is all powerful, He or It can do anything and everything. Isnít it?
SDA: All powerful means He chooses of His own volition to have unlimited numbers of subordinate atmas that He can have loving relationships with.
You know our Chanakya Pandita, actually, Your Chanakya Pandita in India, he said that: ďA home without children is like a desert.Ē So mother and father, they want to have some children in their house, to make it some nice loving relationships going on. So God has done that.
God could just be all alone if He wanted to be. But to expand His own enjoyment, He emanates from Himself, millions and billions of living entities, so that He can have a very sweet and wonderful, Ďuniqueí loving relationship with each and every one of them.
You may say why? Itís simply for Godís enjoyment. How many children did you have? Uh?
Dr. Rao: I donít know [Giggles]
SDA: How many children did you have? Wait a minute. You must know, if you are a pious man. [Audience laughs in the background] How many children did you have?
Dr.Rao: One. Not theoretically. Biologically.
Guest (2): [Repeats] Biologically.
SDA: So, God also has children to expand His loving relationships.
Dr.Rao: Now, do you call them jivas.
Dr.Rao: You call jivas.
SDA: We call jivas. In Sanskrit language, they are called jivas.
Dr.Rao: Right, but jiva can live in an atom?
SDA: Jiva can be in many forms.
Dr.Rao: Any form?
SDA: Actually, even in the atom there is a jiva.
SDA: The jivas are all pervading.
Dr.Rao: So when you come to the gross organism just like in the human body, there is no such thing as an instantaneous death. Like the heart cells will slowly disintegrate.
SDA: I will explain. Actually this body is a city of millions of jivas.
Dr.Rao: Millions of jivas, right.
SDA: Thatís right. There are millions and billions of jivas in the body, but there is one jiva who controls the whole thing and thatís the Ďkingí jiva.
Ah! So, now we are coming ...
SDA: When the King leaves, then gradually the whole city falls apart.
Dr.Rao: So now we have a hierarchy of jivas then?
SDA: But, you who are speaking right now, you are that ĎKingí jiva within the body, the other jivas are not acting. The king speaks on behalf of the whole kingdom. He is the one voice. He is the real person. And he speaks on behalf of all the citizens. So, actually there are millions and billions of citizens, each and every atom in your body, there are so many worms in your body.
Dr.Rao: Um. Yeah.
SDA: But you are the predominating jiva within that body. You are controlling it. You are the predominating jiva. Just like if the King is killed by the enemy King then the whole kingdom can fall apart. You are the ruling jiva in this body. When you leave then the body will gradually disintegrate. The Christians bury it... it turns into dust. The Parsis serve it to the vultures. The Hindus burn it. So the body becomes useless once the ĎKingí jiva who is ruling over the body leaves. Then the whole thing falls apart, gradually. It doesnít function as one unit anymore. There are all these little jivas doing their own individual thing. But as long as you are in it, you hold it together, acting in one cohesive manner, under your direction. All the other jivas have to just go along with you. If you want your hand to go up, it goes like this even though there are millions and billions of jivas in each and every atom; they all have to all just go along with you because you are the ruling jiva.
Dr.Rao: So then we are talking about paramatma and differentiating into atmas and sub-atmas.
SDA: There is one Paramatma i.e. Krishna.
SDA: And He has unlimited numbers of manifestations. He is within every atom. He is between every atom. Besides that, the Paramatma is the witnessing bird and the jiva atma is the fruit-eating bird.
That jiva, according to his karma he will go from body to body to body, and wherever he goes the Paramatma goes, sitting beside him there and witnessing all his fruitive activities within this material world, just waiting for that day when that jiva will realize how foolish he is, trying to enjoy separately from God and will agree to come back again to the Kingdom of the God.
Dr.Rao: Right. In the meanwhile we have introduced the idea of the ĎKingí jiva. So there must be millions of King jivas also.
SDA: Thatís right. Actually, there can easily be Paramatma to go along with each and every jiva within your body so in that sense, there can be millions and billions of Paramatmas who are witnessing the activities within your body and then millions and billions of jiva atmas are also there.
Dr.Rao: So there is huge number of hierarchy.
SDA: There are unlimited numbers of jivas and unlimited numbers of expansions within this material world of Paramatma.
Paramatma is between every atom, within every atom. He is all pervading within this material world. He is a four-armed form of Vishnu, actually. It is, technically speaking- Kshirodakasayi Vishnu. He is the expanded form of Vishnu called Maha-Vishnu who lies down within the corner of the universe. He goes into a sleep called Yoga-nidra. And from His sleeping come out millions and billions of universes with each exhalation. Out of His breath and also out of the pores of His skin come millions and billions of universes. And that Maha-Vishnu or Karanodakasayi Vishnu expands further into each and every Universe as Garbodakasayi Vishnu and then that Garbodakasayi Vishnu within each and every universe further expands Himself into unlimited number of millions and billions of Kshirodakasayi Vishnus within every atom and between every atom.
To sit with every single jiva, He is kind of a witnessing bird of the activities of all the individual jivas. So you have that particular Paramatma who is working with you, the individual jiva, who has been travelling with you, from lifetime to lifetime to lifetime, witnessing all your fruitive activities, just waiting for that day, Dr.Rao. When you will go:
Hare Krishna, Hare
Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare
Hare Rama, Hare
Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Hare Rama, Hare
Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare
Pray: ďMy dear Krishna, I am tired of being independent. I just want to come back and be Your devotee forever, forever and ever. Please take me back.Ē Then that Paramatma- What He will do? He is called caitya-guru: the guru within the heart. So that caitya-guru, the Paramatma within your heart, when He sees that the time is right, He will bring you into contact with an external guru, whom you can see face to face. You can ask him questions, you can bow down, you can touch his feet, so many things. You know the etiquette. He will actually bring you into contact with a bonafide spiritual master, who will then enlighten you further along the pathway of spiritual enlightenment.
VPM: What are you doing now?
VPM: What are you doing now?
VPM: No. I am asking, what are you doing now? [Inaudible]
SDA: Yes. But you have to have the eyes to recognize. The spiritual master may be in front of you, but you may not see.
Dr. Rao: You may not recognize.
SDA: You may not recognize that it is Krishna actually who brought the spiritual master to you.
Dr.Rao: Oh, yeah.
SDA: Itís your own free will. No one is forcing you. But if you can recognize from your own free will and your own sincerity to know the truth that "Krishna has now brought me in the contact with a bonafide spiritual master, let me capitalize. The paramatma has jumped out of my heart and expanded Himself in the form of the external guru. Let me take advantage of the Paramatma that has manifested externally or in His expanded form now as a spiritual master or guru in front of me. Let me take advantage of him." That is intelligence.
Dr. Rao: Have you heard of Richard Thompson?
SDA: Yes, he is my very good friend.
Dr.Rao: Where does he live now?
SDA: Florida. Alachua, Florida.
Dr.Rao: He has written a lot of books.
SDA: Yes, he is a brilliant scientist.
Dr.Rao: About archaeology, Forbidden Archaeology.
SDA: Yes, him and Michael Cremo.
SDA: I know both of them personally. I have known both of them for many, many years. They are both very dear friends of mine.
Dr.Rao: Where are they now?
SDA: Alachua, Florida is where Dr Thomson stays and Michael Cremo I am not sure where he is based but he is travelling all the time to give lectures, I know that. I saw him last year in West Virginia when I was there. In fact, we even drove Dr Thompson to our centre in Austin to give some talk on his writings.
Dr.Rao: Are they gurus also?
SDA: Michael Cremo is initiating disciples. His spiritual name is Druta- Karma. He has initiated disciples from what I have heard. Dr Thomson, I donít think he is initiating although he could if he really wanted to. But he may not feel he wants to right now. But Michael Cremo is Druta-Karma Das. I heard he is initiating disciples. He is the co-author of Forbidden Archaeology.
Dr.Rao: Yes. Itís very well documented.
SDA: Yeah, really. It is extremely.
Dr Rao: Itís not reaching the scientists.
SDA: It is reaching but hasnít reached far enough yet.
Dr. Rao: Not far enough.
SDA: Thatís right. So you can help promote that book, amongst your scientific community.
Dr Rao: Most recently, he wrote a book on Hinduism. The title is ĎHinduismí.
SDA: So I am not familiar with that book. But, yeah, we are working on, bringing a revolution in every sphere: in the religious sphere, in the scientific sphere, in the artistic sphere, the political sphere. We are pushing them now to make revolution in every single sphere of human society, to bring solutions to all the problems that are plaguing the world. So thatís why I am asking you, join our movement. We need you. You have great credentials as a scientist.
Dr.Rao: I shouldnít be answering yes or no at this point.
SDA: So you just said: ďyesĒ.
[Audience laughs in the background]
Dr.Rao: I say, the moment, the time has to come for everything. I believe in that.
SDA: Anyway, you have been called to join this Caitanyaís movement. Hereís is the thing, Dr.Rao. You are a scientist. You have to have full philosophical scientific understanding. So, therefore, I am simply requesting this: that you read our books very, very carefully. You read very carefully. With your scientific brain you analyze each and every page. You have Bhagavad-gita As It Is now?
Dr.Rao: Yes, I have.
SDA: You read it very carefully. And in this way, everything will naturally come.
Dr.Rao: I have a close friend who is a Vaisnavite. He doesnít belong to ISKCON but he is a Vaisnavite. And he and I had long discussions on this dvaita and advaita.
SDA: In other sampradayas, their understanding is like advaita. But this Caitanya sampradaya, He has taken it to a higher level of philosophical understanding.
Dr.Rao: Right, I get that.
SDA: See, the Madhvacarya, the Ramanujacarya followers, they donít have the understanding of this Caitanya sampradaya, we have. Caitanya has taken it to the higher level.
SDA: Perfection stage.
Dr.Rao: Yeah, both are correct.
SDA: He is embracing both advaita and dvaita, both. So this is a very powerful philosophy.
Dr.Rao: From what you have said this evening, you can tie it very nicely with Christianity also.
SDA: Yes, we will convince all the Christians also to join this movement. We will bring all the Muslims, we will bring all the Christians and all the scientists also, we will grab everyone and bring them to Krishna consciousness. That is our mission. Thatís right.
Dr.Rao: No. Christian theology is very profound if you strip it out of what you hear every day in the churches. The dogma that is promoted, if you take that out and focus on the metaphysical aspects of what we are calling here the jivas losing their contact with the Paramatma- thatís explained as the ĎOriginal siní.
SDA: This co-relates very nicely with the Christian philosophy. Thatís a fact. Itís only that they have polluted it. Actually, we have heard reports that the original Christians were strict vegetarians. What was it called? Constantinople which is now Istanbul, at Constantinople they wanted to get the Roman Emperor to join Christianity so they changed their doctrine to adjust to him, because he was a meat-eater. They re-wrote the Christian doctrine. Because look at some of the original Christian patriarchs like Origen for example, he was a vegetarian and he believed in reincarnation. They have gone and they have rewritten the Christian doctrine to get the Roman Emperor for political purpose. They wanted to make it the state religion, so they re-wrote the religion to accommodate the Roman Emperor who was a meat-eater and didnít believe in reincarnation.
VPM: And now they have also recently changed from Ďkillí to Ďmurderí.
SDA: Oh! Yeah. The Christian Bible says: ĎThou shall not killí. In 60ís and 70ís we have been spreading that word, so they went and re-wrote the Bible since then. In response to the Hare Krishna movement, they have re-written the Bible. And now they say: ďThou shall not murderĒ. They re-wrote the Bible since we were showing their fallacy. And all they did is re-write the Bible now. They changed the Bible because of Hare Krishna movement.
Dr.Rao: Whatís the difference between Ďkillí and Ďmurderí.
SDA: Thereís actually no difference, but they make a definition and say Ďmurderí means human beings. But the fact is they are murdering the animals in the slaughterhouse, actually. It is cold-blooded murder of animals, innocent animals. Thatís a fact.
For they make a distinction. Well, Ďmurderí means you canít kill humans but its okay to kill the animals. But actually, Christ started this Christian movement because he was disgusted with all the animal killing going on in the Jewish synagogue. Thatís why he started this Christian movement. Thereís a protest against the Jewish killing of the animals in the synagogues. So this is completely bogus what they call Christianity. Itís really bogus!
Dr Rao: Too many questions, but I will ask one final question related to all this one.
SDA: Alright, this is the last one. Okay.
Dr.Rao: That is idol worship in Hinduism.
SDA: Yes. Hindus may worship Ďidolsí.
Dr.Rao: What does that mean? What does that imply?
SDA: ĎIdolí means Ďfalseí God.
Guest (1): Ah! Sorry to interrupt right here. My second part of my question was going to be, when I said why give it a form. Idol worship is what I meant.
SDA: Yes. Yes. Okay.
Guest (1): This was my second part of my question.
SDA: Al right! Thatís good, I understand. Thatís good, you brought that up. Okay. Now, is God omnipresent or is God not omnipresent? Is God present everywhere or God not present everywhere? Whatís the answer?
Dr Rao: Both.
SDA: Both! Wait a minute.
Dr Rao: Yeah.
[Audience laugh in the background]
SDA: Tell me or not, whether God is present here?
Dr Rao: God is present everywhere.
SDA: Alright, He is present everywhere. Okay. So He is also present in the form of deity then!
Dr Rao: Yeah.
SDA: See, this is the non-sense of the advaitavadis. They say that the God is present everywhere, except in the deity form. He is present everywhere else, but in this place He is not present. You see how silly that is?
SDA: He is everywhere, but in deity He is not present.
Guest (1): Then why create a deity.
Dr.Rao: then why go to the temple?
SDA: The question is: ĎWhy create deity when God is everywhere?í
Guest (1): Why go to the temple?
SDA: Alright, I will answer your question. Is not the US postal service everywhere?
Guest (1): Yeah.
The trucks are going everywhere and the delivery is going everywhere, isnít it? The US postal service is all over the United States.
Everywhere you go- the US postal service. So when you mail a letter, can
you just throw it on the grass in the front yard? No. You have to put it
in a specified box, a mail box. And then it will go. So the Lord out of
His kindness ...
Of course, here in your town may have some main post office, but if you have to go there every time you have to mail a letter you become discouraged. In our town you can put it in your mail box also, and they can pick it up from your mail box. So there are designated places, designated by the postal service where you can put your letter and it will be delivered, just as good as taking it downtown to the local post office.
So the Lord out of His kindness, even though He is situated, far, far beyond this world, in His Kingdom, He has given certain designated places where we can directly render service to Him and it will be accepted in the form of the murti in the temple. That is the Lordís arrangement. That is His arrangement. That He has agreed to fully manifest His Divine presence for accepting service and receiving blessings in the form of the murti that is given in scripture. And Krishna Himself when He was on this planet reaffirmed this principle.
Dr.Rao: Which scripture or which Upanishad or the Purana Ö?
SDA: Oh! Where is deity worship described?
SDA: In the Bhagavatam there are so many mentions of deity worship.
Dr.Rao: In the Bhagavatam!
SDA: Bhagavatam, we can look up those verses for you. But there are so many verses. So that is the Lordís Kindness. Actually, in the spiritual world, they are directly seeing the form of God, they are directly touching the form of God, they are directly serving the form of God. So by Krishna agreeing to appear in the form of a deity we can practice the liberated activities of seeing the form of Lord, bowing down to the form of the Lord and serving the form of the Lord. We can actually practice those activities just like a little child. She may get a little toy stove. You know the little girls they have little toy stove, pretending they are cooking
SDA: So we get a little replica. God gives us a form of Himself, which has His full divine potency. He actually manifests Himself in that brass form, or that marble form or that wooden form. He agrees to do that out of kindness to us, to give us the opportunity to practice dressing Him, serving Him, feeding Him, bowing down to Him. That is His kindness.
VPM: This is not Ďidolí because this is made according to the description.
SDA: ĎIdolí means false God. For the Deity to be bona-fide, the spiritual master actually prays to the Lord that He may manifest His Divine presence in this form. We have to be authorized by the spiritual master to worship the Deity actually. You have to actually have the blessings of your guru maharaja. Because the spiritual master is inviting Krishna to appear, because of the potency of the spiritual master, Krishna will agree to appear within that form. You canít just invent some form, thatís called Ďidolí worship. And if it is an authorized form and the spiritual master has asked Krishna to appear within that form then Krishna will hear the prayers of His pure devotee and He will come and appear in that form.
Just like we recently saw in Boston the Deities that Prabhupada himself had personally installed. So you understand that Krishna must really be there, because Prabhupada installed the Deities. So in this way when the spiritual master installs the Deity and asks Krishna to come into that form and Krishna will answer the prayers of His pure devotee, He will come into that form. If spiritual master is not requesting Him to come, itís simply some idol.
But a sadhu, a saintly devotee of the Lord prays to the Lord: kindly manifest Your Divine presence here, so that Your devotees can serve You in this form. And Krishna will answer the prayers of the sadhus. And He will come because the sadhu has begged Krishna to come.
Dr Rao: Is something like that done before the Rathayatra takes place?
Dr.Rao: Yeah, Rathayatra.
SDA: The Deities that are being carried in the Rathayatra have already been installed Deities. Yes, that ceremony has already been done. They formally petitioned the Lord to come and appear in that form.
SDA: Thatís right.
Just before the procession start .
SDA: Not just before because those Deities are being worshiped in the temple all year long.
Dr.Rao: Oh! Alright!
SDA: In our ISKCON Rathayatras those Deities have been worshiped all year long not just during that parade. Generally, they are being worshiped all year long then Krishna is invited when the Deity was first being worshiped many, many years ago. Krishna was invited to come into that form.
So anyway, that was your last one.
VPM: So at least he will become vegetarian now.
VPM: He will become vegetarian now.
SDA: Now a vegetarian house, because your wife wants so much to cook for me.
SDA: Thatís very nice. She wants very much to cook. Her heart just sank tonight when she heard that I wasnít going to eat. Her Heart went all the way down to her ankles, I think. She was shocked, ďI cooked for guruji and now he is not going to eat. Oh!Ē She was just plunging into ocean of lamentation. So next time when I come then she can cook to your full satisfaction and I will eat absolutely everything she cooks but no meat, no fish and no eggs. And offer everything to Krishna before eating.
Transcribed by Shyama Priya devi dasi
Revision by Prema Bhakti dasa